Fantasy Pros/Cons

[BlackMage5072]

Well, since we're far beyond the halfway point of year two of the Darkside Fantasy, I figured I'd give a few pros/cons list of each of the promotions. Feel free to reply with your pros and cons of the NWA, since I myself, have a tough time seeing anything wrong with the NWA, since I run it with DM. I'm sure you guys have a hard time seeing anything wrong with the way you're each running your promotions, so this is a good way to see what POSSIBLY may be wrong, or just other people's opinions here.

Let's get started:

WWF
Pros: Big name, easily recognizable talent. Young guys are getting pushed well, great matches, enjoyable storytelling.
Cons: Rinse-and-repeat storylines, too many factions, weak women's roster (at the moment.)

The only thing I really see wrong with WWF is the repetitive nature of the storylines. The faction warfare reminds me of 1997/1998 gang-style warfare, which only worked for about 8 months back in its heyday. Also, multiple re-hashes of the Ministry of Darkness don't help this cause either. The women's division needs some help, however the Draft was just recently, and WWF has picked up some more women, so look for the women's roster to step its game up. At the moment, Trish and Kendra are the two cornerstones of WWF's women's division, and look for that to keep growing.

On the other side of the coin, WWF provides excellent storytelling, and top-quality matches time and time again. Stars like Bryan Danielson, Jushin Liger, and Hayabusha were built extremely well, especially Liger, who is the WWF's most over wrestler. The Tag Team division has slightly dwindled in the past few months thanks to the faction warfare, but I expect great things out of it, now that WWF finally has the Motor City Machine Guns. The storylines within The Company stable are second to none, as each of the characters within that stable are being legitimate heels.



ROH
Pros: Undeniably, the best tag team division. Excellent wrestling matches, good variety in matches. "ROH-bred" talent. Randy Orton.
Cons: Hit-or-miss matches, abysmal women's division.

ROH's women's division is nonexistant. I honestly cannot remember the last time women wrestled on this show. ROH however, has that "different flavor" that a lot of people are instantly turned to. People who watch ROH will get their ROH homebred talent showcased, as well as excellent mid to high card wrestlers from other promotions. A lot of the matches however, as stated above, are hit-or-miss. However, when ROH hits, it hits hard and heavy.

The greatest things going for ROH are Randy Orton, and more importantly, its tag team division. Randy Orton has been elevated to beyond anything that anyone could've expected in ROH. He's been World Champion for such a long time, it'll be really hard to see him without it once he drops it to someone. Also, the tag team division is the greatest out of all the promotions. Having the tag team as the single main event match in some ppv's proves this, as well as James' ludicrous idea of taking 6-8 months to crown his tag team champions, it did nothing but just elevate the entire tag team division. Excellent call. Also, ROH has a good variety in its matches, giving great one on one, hardcore, and tag team matches, especially the latter, where it shines the most.



DGUSA
Pros: Monster-level main event talent.
Cons: Lots of talent that no one would pay to see, unknown ways of using talent. Zach Gowen.

DGUSA has lots of monster-level main event talent. Stone Cold, The Rock, Hogan, Sid, JBL, and others can easily make this main event roster excellent. On the other side of the coin, DGUSA has so much talent that no one would pay money to see, it's ridiculous. And speaking of that, why the hell is Zach Gowen in between the ropes.

With Vince McMahon now acquired, however, perhaps DGUSA will give us something different, and with McMahon at the helm, we could get interesting TV.

[DM]

WWF -

First lets start off with the cons, more so to get it out of the way. While some may not be hip to the faction warfare and how it more so groups a bunch of people together and they never truly get their spotlight, it does in a sense become slightly predictable that when you see one, the other(s) will be coming. That though doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement as management (kayfabe) stepped up and started laying down the law. One thing that has improved though is the faith on the younger talent while the big names are used, if not sparingly, correctly while last year, all the big names were used and the one big talent that was pushed (MVP) kind of went no where, but I'm blaming that on booking, not the wrestler. The other con which is kind of weird is the inception of the X-Division Title, I can see where the intension was, but the I.C. and the X-Division title, to me at least seem as if they're supposed to be the same title, at least in worth and there is little variety in the match type thus to me it seems, the I.C. Champ and the X-Division Champ are at the same level, interchangeable really.
The pros however is without a doubt this is a promotion that has storytelling, not that all three don't have storytelling, some of us just take 8-48 months to get there and the 'on screen' product comes off big, gives you a big fight feel each time. Bringing in Liger was one of the smartest moves this company made as he's over, end of discussion, Liger is over. It's nice to see the women's division getting a bit of a push and the matches, while sparing have been great.

ROH

Might as well start with the cons and it's not like there is a lot...but. The one thing that is hard, at least at first was getting used to the fact that the Tag Team Titles are worth more than the World Title, in my eyes it shouldn't be but I know why this is, it took a while to get used to that flavor, not really a con but still. I think BM said it best that the women's division is somewhat lacking, however the Tag Team Division makes up for it so when there is a women's match it's more of an attraction which I have no problem with, though I would like to see more women. The other con, which is more so a taste is, sometimes, it's hard to determine the heels and faces, but again, that is the flavor of ROH, you cheer whom you want and jeer whom you want, which is great but at the same time, it's hard to make a good heel when the fans are cheering.
Now for the pros and that is simply this probably has the best 'wrestling' on the show. Doesn't focus so much on the story other than the major titles and the tag team division is untouchable. You can have tag team champions for nine years straight but ROH gives you a great tag match every damned pay per view. The main events (World Title) can be hit or miss BUT the match itself always draws you in. It's almost as if each time you get on the ROH ride you don't know if you're going to love it or like it but you'll enjoy the ride each time. Storyline is irrelivant in this promotion since the wrestling game is A+ which makes up for it. Kind of the ECW style which I think is what is aimed.

DG USA

Well it's really hard to pinpoint exactly what it is but we really haven't seen much from DG so it's hard to comment on the pros or cons. If you're looking for a con it's the fact there were only three ppv's during it's inception and while the women's division is perhaps the biggest in all four promotions, I'm not even sure if it's used. With that said lets see where DG takes us.

[Valdora]

Good stuff BM. Let me get in on this.

First of I think we have room here to rebut and reply to each others thoughts.

I get what you are saying about the Ministry thing but the fact is I have only done it twice. The other thing is that last years stable ironically actually called the Ministry while having a dark roster and the music was NOT the Ministry. It was a stable of wrestlers headed by the Undertaker. Now the fact it was face does not make it not the Ministry but the fact Taker was basically the deadman character with a different beard and no one was sacrificed or changed to be on his side.

In a way the current "Order of Darkness" draws far more from the original Ministry, and I admit that. But what I am doing is taking the original idea before Russo F'ed it up and combining it with the NWO and my own original idea. To me the idea of a dictator, brainwasher cult leader Undertaker leading and transforming heroes into villains to destroy the company from wihin is far more interesting than any heel group and as you can see on the stable pic page all those "Gangs" were created to feed this storyline. Its called long term planning WWE and TNA writers should take note.

Now on to the pros and cons.

NWA

Pros: Great dynamic matches between good heroic characters and very over heels who will do ANYTHING for heat. Also long term planning and patience allows big shocking returns and "big fight feel" events. I think the pushing of great talent such as Bourne and others is great. I also think that the womens division is second to none, while I may have one off great womens matches you have them every month and the use of underused talent like Katie Lea really showcases that. I also think this helps add to the variety show feel where every type of pro wrestling gets the spotlight.

Cons:
Takes WAY to much influence from the current WWE product. Not in the feel or storylines but in who they push and why. Now if you guys are a fan of the modern era thats fine but I'm really not and as a result seeing new comers I dislike in the real world get the push in NWA seems kinda reactionary.
Also you have a tendancy sometimes to build a match or a person up only to injure them or call off the match.
That also leads into my final one which is the fact that while its great to see young guys you have way to many of your great roster sitting around doing nothing. To me it should be half and half with legends and young guys. Especially since we are assuming the legends are in their prime. Guys like Flair and Sting can just dissapere from TV with no write off or explanation. When I give Bret or Taker time off I write them off and when they are around I use them

ROH:

Pros: Fantastic Tag division, great shows from top to bottom and you really allows the Tags to be just as if not more important that the heavyweight belts.

Cons: The womens division not being used is a terrible shame. I agree that ROH doesn't use women and that proberly why but you have some of the greatest women's talent ever on your roster and you don't use them. If you arn't going to give them to us and we will, honestly it might be for the best.

Also sometimes matches can end before they have even begun sometimes. Runs in and swerves are fine but at least have a good match before it so people don't feel ripped off in buying the PPV for that main event match.

WAY to many run ins in matches. I do it to but you do it just about twice every PPV now. I get thats part of the storyline but still.

Ok thats me guys. Sorry I couldn't say more good about ROH James but yoru pros were summed up in less words which in a sense was GREAT. Your tag division and your utilization of them are your gem sir. If you want me to say more then just ask about something.

Laters.

[Board Admin]

WWF
Pros: Probably the biggest company name on this fantasy roster, The ability to use younger talent whilst still using the older talent effectively so you get a mixed combination, the best overall storytelling.

Cons: Your ability to reuse older storylines but tweak them so they look new, granted you can create whats already been done so you tweak and hope it works but replaying 97-00 for me just feels weird because in retrospect we have ONLY really just come off that era and weaning onto this current era so the memories are still fresh in the head.

The other con is the faction use right now, near enough everyone on the roster is in a faction and whilst thats great it gets way too confusing and when listening to PPV matches my focus seems to be on whose faction will attack and when rather than the match in question.

NWA
Pros: Probably the best when it comes to slow and steady build, it grows to the point that it could explode at any moment and it could work. The use of young talent which the older talent try to get over. The fact that you have the best wrestling when it comes to the PPV's, each match flows in a certain way that doesnt make you think negatively about the matches.

Cons: Annoucning title matches for a PPV and never following through with them, its false advertising and for example after the really nice fued between Punk and Steamboat it's thrown away with one backstage segement on a PPV, makes me feel short changed.

DGUSA
Pros: Has probably the best big named talent around and has a good undercard divsion

Cons: Hardly any PPVs which lacks in interest to the company causing memory failures. Also Zach Gowen being in the company and getting a tag title shot....thats right i remember

[BlackMage5072]

Excellent posts here, Karl, now allow me to rebut on the behalf on NWA.

Yes, we do take some influence from the current product, but the reason why the young guys we choose get pushed is because it's who we like, and it's how we want to use them. It's not because CM Punk got pushed in WWE that he got used in NWA, and it's not that McIntyre got pushed in WWE that he got used in NWA. We sit there and think about who would fit best in those positions, and how we can use them as well. Also, it's a way of showing people that even though you may not like certain people, they CAN be utilized well. This explains why Kidman, Katie Lea, John Cena, and Mysterio all got pushes. Mysterio and Cena were super heels, and that takes NO influence from the current product. CM Punk is playing a different kind of heel, and all the other champions are super-heels that the people legitimately hate, which, once again, takes NO influence from the current product, since WWE can't fucking do this.

As for you, James, that was a one-time only thing. Can you really think of any other time that NWA has done this? Also, I can't think of too many other ways that could've necessitated the return of John Cena with so much impact. And when I watch ROH, I want matches. Not run-ins. =P

[Valdora]

I have to say I haven't seen any rebutal that doesn't have a good counter point to be honest.

I know where I am going with the Order and NWA know who they like. Good stuff.

Any rebuts James? You seem to kinda of ignored us.

Now to carry that on in reply to DM and James.

DM

I think you can tell by the booking the X Division title is the crusierweight division and the IC title is booked lightyears ahead. The IC belt is almost always used in the semi main event no matter what grude match there is on the undercard.

James

Umm....ok I see that I am using influence from the Ministry origins but what else have I taken from the Attitude Era? If you are assusing me of trying to recapture that kind of programming then you bet your ass I am! I would like to believe however my booking is somewhere on the happy medium between wrestling and attitude.

[Board Admin]

I havent ignored any of you, I just didnt get a chance to reply again last night but I can now!

Okay granted I agree my women's divison is lacking but for me whilest I do like women's wrestling like i keep saying i am trying to capture the esscance of ROH, and yes that means not having a women's match every month unlike DM and Karl but in my defence when i have a women's match it makes it special. Whilst people will say oh well then your not using your women's divison correctly, I can say well i am different to the two other promotions. Granted its a weird type of different but hey it makes you remembers what goes on.

Granted alot of people have questioned my motive of no storytelling and shades of gray and some people have even bad mouthed me for it but at the end of the day for me the story is secondary in the match, the fact that he is a face or heel is secondary in a match. you can have the greatest build up in the world but I will be more invested in how the match progresses because for me the match can tell a better story then any storyline leading up to the match if done correctly. look at HBK vs Taker, once the storyline of Career Vs Streak was added the storyline became effectivley pointless other than Shawn going off the deep end but what everyone remembers is the match they had because the match itself told MORE of a story than the entire build up did, at least for me it did.

The hit and miss matches have always been my way, Okay in a match you want to see hit after hit after hit but it doesn wear you out, for example my Driven 2009 PPV people said it was one of the most mentally exhausting PPV's i have written because each match was just hit after hit after hit. So i changed the tone but i have always been hit or miss, granted it doesn't make great matches all the time but that is the surprise. will the match be short, long, high impact, wrestling, speed, agility etc. All these factors can influence the choice of match and the hit and miss can empahsise what that type of match outcome will be.

Okay people do some to agree with my run-ins BUT it only started happening once The Revolution stable had joined together, i did have run-ins previous but since about May is when the run-ins were constant but for me i think the run-ins haved worked, granted they take away from the match BUT i have always got the reaction i have wanted from people when they go "Damn" so and so should have won the match. For me that means the run-in was effective enough for you to believe they had the match but the distraction cost them. Anyway if you listen to the storyline they want to dominanate the ROH locker room and instead of backstage attacks and the usual drival we get i use the more imporant fact of the wins and losses to empahsise that these guys are not pissing around and will attack and hurt you and make you lose no matter what the consequences are.

[DM]

WWF

Very true however you also had Miz as the X-Division but being called 'cruiserweight' is kind of...well yeah, however I still can see where you're going. I think the thing mainly is there's no real match variation since Hayabusha/Miz had almost the same match as Liger/MVP, I guess the 'variety' of it is kind of hard to see, where as, for example, U.S. Title is wrestling and Cruiserweight is flippy flippy spot. Not that it's going to be copied but there's a difference in the match type I suppose. Again it's not a bad thing, I think, at least for me they're almost showcased as the same.

ROH

Again not that there is a problem with trying to figure out whom the faces and heels are, that's just the flavour of ROH. Case in point Matt Hardy is a heel yet I'm cheering him, so that's just the feel that you're going to get. We all book for our own reasons and if you really think about it, we know what we're going to do in the long run, we're going to confuse each brand reguardless.

Again the cons are more so flavour preferences since we all have our own vision and tastes and lets face it, they'll be certain things we steal from each other (hell me and Karl have been doing that without the other knowing in recent weeks) since it's how we were raised on. Either way I take all critisim with a grain of salt, will it influence me to alter, perhaps, but again, that's the point to try and get your vision across.

[Valdora]

Well that was down to Liger but Liger is no where near the high flyer that Hayabusa is. If you listen/read the match again it had a lot more pure wrestling than Miz and Hayabusa did.

But I do see your point. I have been considering since Hayabusa is an FMW wrestler using him to mabye make the X Division a mix of high flying and hardcore.

[DM]

Now that is a great idea, kind of like the Hardcore Title mixed with Cruiserweight Action, I actually really like that idea.

[JC]

DG USA will return to Fantasy PPV.....& it will be something to remember.

For me, WWF:
Has repetitive storylines as well, but does follow up well on them.

NWA:
It is really hard to find anything wrong with this Fed., but actually following up on their perspective PPV matches would be good.

ROH:
Their tagteam is their strongest thing going now, Orton is their main player obviously.

All of us have some things to get better at, we are never perfect, so that is a good way to improve things & give it all our best.


Yeah, but again, DG USA has been out of the picture for a while, but to return soon for sure....NOT out for good.

JC.